1960 Pa/MI Grouse study, What RGS was trying to do - The HuntingPA.com Outdoor Community
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-14-2014, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
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1960 Pa/MI Grouse study, What RGS was trying to do

Gentlemen,
RGS in the early days was very different from the RGS we have today, RGS was started by a bunch of Grouse hunters to
further Grouse hunting via proper management of forest habitat. Habitat management was a tool used to accomplish this end. If you go back and read the excerpt in the other 1960 Pa/MI Grouse thread, you will see that these men understood
that Grouse season should be expanded, into the later winter months, so the members could enjoy their Grouse hunting sport for a longer time. Even in the excerpt the proof is there that late season Grouse hunting should be allowed. This did not sit well with some people, especially the new PC crowd.
They had their own agenda and this study ran contrary to it.
However some states like WVa and New York now have Grouse seasons clear into February, which was exactly what the RGS Grouse Biologist and membership wanted back then. Here in Pa however it took a lot longer to have a Grouse season opened until almost the end of January as it is today.
In reality the Pa season should run into Feb, as our adjoining mountain states, Grouse seasons do. The RGS back then was right, late season Grouse hunting had no effect on the over all Grouse populations as long as hunting is done in a sporting manner. At one time RGS was an outstanding organizarion, that supported it's memberships sport hunting.
It was not established as a Conservation group, it was a Grouse hunting organization, funded by Grouse hunters.
Pine Creek/Dave

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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-14-2014, 08:33 PM
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Re: 1960 Pa/MI Grouse study, What RGS was trying to do

Dave,
What is the agenda of the "new pc crowd" that they dont want late season hunting. Personally I was always under the impression that the added pressure during February and even January when food and cover is at its minimum was hard on the population. Even some of the past gunners, thinking GBE, was against the late seasons. Especially since WV saw many more out of staters at that time. Your info would be news to me.
Regards,
James
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-14-2014, 10:39 PM
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Re: 1960 Pa/MI Grouse study, What RGS was trying to do

Grouse are pretty hearty critters. A lot of there food this time of year comes from buds of trees off the ground. Even if there is a foot of snow they can find plenty of food. I don't think there are enough grouse hunters out there to make that big of an impact.

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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 02:39 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 1960 Pa/MI Grouse study, What RGS was trying to do

BlackStump,
In reality the politicians in the PGC follow just how many hours in a season each individual species is hunted. These politicians have a tendency to not listen to the professional Biologists, when they make recommendation as to expanding hunting seasons, they want the hunters (Pa Sportsman) to pay a certain amount of money for the hours available to hunt. Bill Palmer our now retired PGC Grouse Biologist found this out, when he recommended expanding the Pa Grouse season, because there were so few Grouse hunters today. In reality the PGC was not suppose to make money, some how this changed over time. We even have multi-usage of our SGL today, however those nonhunters are not made to purchase hunting licenses to use the SGL, some real rotten liberal politics has crept into our PGC. Even now the politicians are trying to combine the PGC and the Pa Fish & Boat Commission to steal the Pa Sportsmans money.
They want to provide less and less and charge more.

In reality a sportsman today must look at the big picture and start to understand
what the politicians want done with our Pa Game Commission, season expansion even with biological proof is hard to accomplish. The liberal politicians do not want it to happen, they would rather listen to the non-hunting public than represent the Pa Sportsman. The same goes for habitat management, in the eastern part of our state the forests need cut so badly our wild life can't even live in it, you do not see
the forests being managed properly, the politicians don't want it to happen.

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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 02:53 PM
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Re: 1960 Pa/MI Grouse study, What RGS was trying to do

Please explain how the PGC is making money, ie. turning a profit? At least a "profit" that is not directly benefitting PA sportsmen? As far as season expansion, maybe I'm wrong big it seems to me that the seasons and opportunities on many game species has been expanded a good deal over the last 25yrs or so I've been a hunter.

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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 03:15 PM
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Re: 1960 Pa/MI Grouse study, What RGS was trying to do

you need to have a WMA permit in florida for each wma and it is 26.00 if I am understanding it correctly. I believe this is for hunting or non hunting. Imagine if we did that on each SGL

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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 03:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: 1960 Pa/MI Grouse study, What RGS was trying to do

Ryan,
You are mis-understanding my point these politicians are at the top of the PGC, not the average worker in the PGC, however lets look at this closer. In the Rendell regime, Forests were cut in some areas and nobody knows where the money went, our state AG is still investigating this mess even today. We are talking millions of dollars that should have gone to the PGC and the Pa sportsman. Each year the operating budget appears in the Pa Game news, and now with the Gas drilling on the SGL, more money will be available, if the politicians don't figure out some way to put it in the general operating fund. I figure they will tax it in some big way.
For many many years the politicians here in Pa have been trying to join the PGC & Fish & Boat Commission and place their monies in the general operating fund of the Commonwealth of Pa. Stealing the Pa sportsmans lands and money. The elimination of the PGC Wild Pheasant Program
cheated the Pa Sportsman out of one of the biggest hunting programs in the USA, this was done politically also, no matter what others may tell you. The PGC is a great Game Commission, however the politics is ruthless surrounding it.
In reality it is one of the biggest money makers in the state and the politicians want that money.
RGD/Dave

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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 10:09 PM
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Re: 1960 Pa/MI Grouse study, What RGS was trying to do

Quote:
The same goes for habitat management, in the eastern part of our state the forests need cut so badly our wild life can't even live in it
Got that right.
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 10:20 PM
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Re: 1960 Pa/MI Grouse study, What RGS was trying to do

Ohio had a grouse season that lasted until the end of Feb. for many many years.
The grouse populations began a pretty steady decline in the 80's and to the best of my knowledge has not come back much. Ohio initiated a shorter season similar to Pa.'s about two years ago. There seems to be a general consensus that the later season hunting puts enough stress on some grouse coverts that grouse are forced out of their preferred cover and so become more vulnerable to natural predators. This makes some sense to me. I pretty much quit hunting grouse in Ohio because the population declined so much and the numbers of human tracks I'd find in the few late winter coverts that I could find made me feel bad about pursuing the birds.
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 01-15-2014, 10:35 PM
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Re: 1960 Pa/MI Grouse study, What RGS was trying to do

Dave,
First of all, thanks for the reply. If I am understanding you, the upper echelon would like to limit the use of SGL by hunters in order to allow more multi-use opportunities for non hunters? Also, with your years of experience gunning birds in PA you do you feel JAN/FEB pressure has no effect on population? I would disagree but admittingly cannot back it up with scientific data.
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