Huh???? - The HuntingPA.com Outdoor Community
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-10-2013, 11:35 PM Thread Starter
Sage
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 24,411
Back To Top
Huh????

<span style="font-style: italic">Predation is the overwhelming mortality factor in snowshoe populations. A host of mammalian and avian predators take hares with mortality rates often exceeding 75 percent. Because of the importance of predation to mortality rates, other sources of natural mortality, including hunting, play a minor role.<span style="font-weight: bold"> We have no estimates of hare harvest rates in Pennsylvania, but where studies have been conducted else- where, harvest rates have corresponded with population abundance and are not believed to be involved in population declines.</span> Recent declines in hare hunter numbers and participation further underscore the minor role of hunting on hare populations. Snowshoe hare hunting opportunities (bag limit and season length) have been reduced in recent years in response to population status concerns. Habitat availability is the most important factor affect- ing population distribution and status at this time.<span style="font-weight: bold"> The snowshoe harvest has declined over the past two decades, largely from reduced participation in the season. The number of hunters pursuing snowshoe hares ranges from 3,000 to 7,000 during any given year and these hunters harvest from1,000 to 4,000 hares annually. The highest harvest occurred during 2001, when an estimated 4,600 hares were taken in the state.</span>
</span>

from 2013-14 Wildlife Annual


I'm not understanding...

wmu 3A
timberdoodle is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-10-2013, 11:41 PM
Diehard Outdoorsman
 
John-PA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Allegheny County
Posts: 3,093
Back To Top
Re: Huh????

"We have no estimates of hare harvest rates in Pennsylvania" Then at the end it gives harvest numbers, what a joke. I don't think the PGC has a clue when it comes to snowshoe hare.

Free Madcatter!
John-PA is offline  
post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-10-2013, 11:43 PM
Regular Member
 
Clinton County's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Clinton County
Posts: 1,748
Back To Top
Re: Huh????

I can see why you aren't. I have read studies on rabbits that weather hunted or not only 10% of them survive their first year. Hunting did not make a difference. Guess if we don't get them something else does. Well most of them.

You canít get them if you ainít in the woods!!
<span style="font-weight: bold">GOD BLESS</span>
Clinton County is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-11-2013, 12:49 PM
Regular Member
 
Smoke'n Mack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western PA
Posts: 1,047
Back To Top
Re: Huh????

"We have no estimates of hare harvest rates in Pennsylvania, but where studies have been conducted else- where, harvest rates have corresponded with population abundance and are not believed to be involved in population declines"

I think it's extremely foolish to compare the PA hare to anything conducted "elsewhere". Our hare live in pockets, you find the habitat, you find the hare. I believe that a hunter with a good pack of dogs in PA can absolutely wipe a certain spot out, just due to the fact that if you jump a hare in his spot, he could be circled until he's killed. If not, come back tomorrow, he'll still be close.
Smoke'n Mack is offline  
post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-11-2013, 01:15 PM
dap
Moderator
 
dap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In the thick stuff
Posts: 2,281
Back To Top
Re: Huh????

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke'n Mack
"We have no estimates of hare harvest rates in Pennsylvania, but where studies have been conducted else- where, harvest rates have corresponded with population abundance and are not believed to be involved in population declines"

I think it's extremely foolish to compare the PA hare to anything conducted "elsewhere". Our hare live in pockets, you find the habitat, you find the hare. I believe that a hunter with a good pack of dogs in PA can absolutely wipe a certain spot out, just due to the fact that if you jump a hare in his spot, he could be circled until he's killed. If not, come back tomorrow, he'll still be close.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? Suppose you have an 80 acre clearcut with 2 hare living in it. You hunt it everyday between Christmas and new years and you kill those 2 hare. What impact does killing those 2 hare have on PA's statewide population? Should statewide regulations should be put in place to address this? If so what should they be?
dap is offline  
post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-11-2013, 02:43 PM
Regular Member
 
Smoke'n Mack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Western PA
Posts: 1,047
Back To Top
Re: Huh????

Quote:
Originally Posted by dap
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke'n Mack
"We have no estimates of hare harvest rates in Pennsylvania, but where studies have been conducted else- where, harvest rates have corresponded with population abundance and are not believed to be involved in population declines"

I think it's extremely foolish to compare the PA hare to anything conducted "elsewhere". Our hare live in pockets, you find the habitat, you find the hare. I believe that a hunter with a good pack of dogs in PA can absolutely wipe a certain spot out, just due to the fact that if you jump a hare in his spot, he could be circled until he's killed. If not, come back tomorrow, he'll still be close.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make? Suppose you have an 80 acre clearcut with 2 hare living in it. You hunt it everyday between Christmas and new years and you kill those 2 hare. What impact does killing those 2 hare have on PA's statewide population? Should statewide regulations should be put in place to address this? If so what should they be?

My point is, in my opinion, you can't compare PA to other states where hare's live due to it's "broken" habitat. I think PA's hare population is a unique issue that, as far as I can tell, no one has tried to figure out. Clearly the game commission is just taking stabs in the dark by making "half a statewide" regulation. So I guess, if you figure out the answers to the question's you asked, please share it with the rest of us.
Smoke'n Mack is offline  
post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-11-2013, 02:44 PM
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Elk County
Posts: 13,129
Back To Top
Re: Huh????

I believe what the report is saying is that in Pennsylvania through the use of the annual and random hunter survey mailed out to a percentage of the hunters they have a pretty good idea on how many hunters are both hunting and harvesting snowshoe hare each year. Yet, even with the knowledge of how many hares the hunters are harvesting they still donít know what percentage of the total snowshoe hare population is being harvested each year and thus assume that when hunter success rates go up or down it is relevant to the population cycling in the same upward or downward trends.

Those population/harvest up and down cycles have been studied and documented in other states where they have both larger snowshoe populations and more hunting pressure. So, it is pretty safe to both assume and expect the same population/harvest trends in this state even though we donít have snowshoe populations that reach the levels of some of those states doing the studies. Pennsylvania has also provided snowshoe hare DNA results that went to, if I remember correctly Montana, so actually the Penna. snowshoe has received some snowshoe research results as part of that study. In fact, a few year ago a number of HPA members submitted DNA samples from the hares they harvested as part of that research.

Based on what I have seen during my career I am not sure that hunters can wipe out snowshoe hare populations within the season and bag limit structure and limitations we have where the hare actually have suitable habitat.

There is an area of what was my district that is predominantly mature spruce stands planted by the old CCC camps back in the 1930ís that has been the heart of the snowshoe hunting in this area for at least the past three decades. Every year there are hunters from all over western Penna. that bring packs of dogs to hunt the area every day of the season and most of them harvest some hares when they hunt it. It isnít even all that large of an area yet each year it seems the hare population withstands the on slot of both hunting pressure and hare harvests.

There are many other areas of what was my district that have had good snowshoe populations, hunting pressure and hare harvests that no longer have good snowshoe populations. The differences that I see between the areas is that the areas that cycled from good to low populations were all areas that had once been clear-cut areas back in the 70ís and 80ís. Once the areas got into the late seedling/sapling to early pole timber stages they held good snowshoe populations and saw some pretty significant hunting pressure. But, as those areas progressed into the more advanced stages of pole timber the snowshoe hare populations declined and eventually pretty much disappeared. I donít know for sure if the population crashes were due entirely to the habitat changes or a combination habitat change and hunter harvests but there was no mistaking the fact that the populations changed with the habitat change. Yet, where the spruce stands had been established years ago there appeared to be very little habitat change from year to year and the snowshoe populations still seem to withstand intense hunting pressure and harvest each year.

Based on my observations I have to believe the differences between the areas and their ability to sustain hunting pressure and harvests are differences in the habitat variables instead of hunting pressure variables.

Dick Bodenhorn
R. S. B. is offline  
post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-11-2013, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
Sage
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 24,411
Back To Top
Re: Huh????

Thank you Dick however I still don't understand why they state "we have no hare harvest rates in Pennsylvania" and two or three sentences later "The number of hunters pursuing snowshoe hares ranges from 3,000 to 7,000 during any given year and these hunters harvest from1,000 to 4,000 hares annually. The highest harvest occurred during 2001, when an estimated 4,600 hares were taken in the state."

No matter ho they estimate..they still estimate a harvest. Hunting conditions can greatly affect a one week season in terms of hunters afield.

One significant or ice storm snow can keep a bunch of people home during a one week season regardless of population numbers.


wmu 3A
timberdoodle is offline  
post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-11-2013, 05:21 PM
The Man
 
Borden811's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Clearfield Co.
Posts: 5,117
Back To Top
Re: Huh????

They know how many hunters there are, they know how many hares were killed. What they don't know is the overall hare population. You can't have a harvest rate, without knowing hie many hares you start with in the first place! If there are 10,000 hares, and 3,000 get killed, you have a 30% harvest rate. Now, if you don't know how many there are to begin with, but you still kill 3,000, what is your harvest rate? Do you understand now? They know how many were killed, they know how many people are hunting them. They don't know the harvest rate.
The statement is correct, you just misunderstood the wording.

I think I'm an alright guy, I think I'm alright
Borden811 is offline  
post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old 06-11-2013, 05:46 PM Thread Starter
Sage
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 24,411
Back To Top
Re: Huh????

That makes sense thank you!! But how do they come up with a predation rate of 75% if the population number is not known???

wmu 3A
timberdoodle is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The HuntingPA.com Outdoor Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome