8 years ago, I was invited to a club in Ohio. A very nice one at that. We shot pheasants and chukar over a nice GSP . Prior to the hunt the staff placed the crated birds in rows of sorgum about 20 feet wide. They told the member how many were in each row. We "hunted" and our friend was proud that we got them all plus a couple from a driven hunt the day before.
I've never done that type of hunting since as it didn't seem very sporting, but to each their own.
I’ve done it. Not really hunting. Great for dog training.
Also great experience for older hunters, handicapped hunters and young hunters.
Wonderful for wannabe hunters so that they may brag about their dogs pointing birds that don’t really want to fly.
Horse hockey! There is no point to hunt birds over pointing dogs if they don't fly. I hunt on a regulated hinting ground to keep my dog in shape and I sure would not hunt it if the birds do not fly. It is every bit as sporting as hunting birds stocked by the state because neither you or the dogs know where the birds are in the cover. Every shooting ground is different, we do not know how many birds are in a specific cover, all we know is how many we aid for to be set out. Shooting a flying bird over a dog is shooting a flying bird over a dog.
It's every bit as ethical as getting your beef from a pasture full of Angus. That's what the birds were raised for. That's what the cows were raised for. If the bird aren't flyers...……..the sporting aspect of it can differ. But "ethical" ?? Yes.
I did this once with a friend who had a dog that was in training. It was a pretty neat experience. I will say one thing that stood out in my mind that differs it some from the normal stocking that I assume we all know of with the game commission. The way they set the birds where we went. They did not open a cage and just let them run. They grab the birds by the legs and swing them in a circle to throw off their equilibrium and then tuck the heads under the wings and place them in the cover. That was the borderline area of ethical in my mind.
There's a pretty big difference between planted birds and released birds.I trained my dog with planted chukars.It was training to teach her to hold point.It wasn't hunting and while the training part was fun,the shooting really wasn't.
Similar to catching trout in a completely stocked stream.
There are some who refuse to fish stocked streams, and simply go "blue-lining". I'd love to be one of those people, but I'm simply not 100% there.
Though I'm not sure how much I'd be willing to pay for a hunt like that. I've never done it, and I haven't really done much birding, so maybe once I do it a time or 2, I would. I won't knock people for it.
i take my dogs to one. Sometimes I'll buy a bird or two and have them put them out. A lot of times though I'll just go and do a 'scratch hunt' and just hunt other peoples left overs. Sometimes I get skunked doing that. Beats dealing with some of the other crap I've read about and seen over the years with the truck chasers shooting over top of other peoples heads and dogs just to get "their birds"
I would not be interested to go on a hunt like that myself. Canned hunts aren't for me. I'd rather stalk gray squirrels in the hard woods. But unethical? No. not unethical at all. No different from the put and take birds the GC puts out on the game lands.
The ethics of a planted bird hunt is up to the individual. I have no problem with it. As I said it is great for dogs and for me, the only reason to do it. As to the statement, “you don’t know where the birds are”, you certainly do. The birds are placed in a certain field or fields for your party.
You do not have the run of the whole shooting grounds to hunt. There are others hunting other fields. Want to see sparks fly, have a dog “trespass” into someone else’s field. And yes some of the birds do not want to fly, as seen in the video posted earlier, sometimes they are kicked out like a football. Anyone that denies this has no experience with this type of hunting or is in total denial.
For you anti stocking gents, I agree it is a shame that pheasant hunting has reached this point in PA.
However these birds stocked are not unlike pheasants from days past. Yes there will be an occasional bird that sits in a tree, but that is the exception. One thing that is forgotten is that in the heyday of PA pheasant hunting thousands of birds were stocked by the Game Commission and every other sportsman’s club and some individuals stocked birds. The difference is that there was habitat to support them from year to year and they became “wild” birds. Also there were many trappers out there that kept the predators in check. I’ve hunted with people in the 60’s that if you let a hawk pass by they yelled at you. The Game Commission actually sponsored hawk hunts in the 30’s and described ways to trap hawks. Yea I know we are more enlightened now than in the 30’s, understanding the predator/prey relationship sooo much better.
Just ask the elk in Idaho about the wolves.
A planted bird hunt is a shoot not a hunt.I wouldn't do it other than for training purposes.When you hunt with a dog,the hunt is all about the dog,not the birds or the shooting.Most people are simply out there to spend time with and watch their dog work.A good dog doesn't make the hunt a very challenging hunt whether the birds are wild or stocked.Gererally speaking birds have no real ability to reason and they aren't very smart whether wild or stocked.One characteristic common with stocked birds is they tend to run in heavy cover.In sparse cover,they'll hold tight but a high percentage of them are always on the run and that makes it challenging when you're hunting with a pointing breed.I have a GSP and if she busts a bird inadvertently without pointing,we don't shoot the bird because we don't want to reward her unless she points.It's often frustrating in heavy cover because the dog is doing it's job by staying on a moving bird but often times the bird will flush.It's also rewarding to watch a young dog figure out that she's not getting that bird in her mouth unless she points.Eventually they start to figure that out and it's pretty cool to watch them learn on their own how to circle a moving bird and get in front of it.My dog is two and just this year she started to continuously glance back at me when a bird was moving but she was closing in on a point.It has nothing to do with the bird.The entire experience is about the dog.Getting a dog to do it's job correctly is what it's all about and it's a big challenge to get there with stocked birds.
If there's a bird in that field,there's a pretty good chance my dog is gonna find it because she's relentless once she get's a snoot full..If we shot every bird that flushed,it would usually be a pretty fast hunt and honestly,not all that challenging.Again,we aren't out there for the birds so making sure she does her job right is what matters.
Planted birds are for training, nothing unethical about it but it's not 'hunting'. I have that friend as well, that when I ask how he did on opening day says he got this many or that many. Come to find out he was at a preserve and they were stocked. Again, nothing wrong with it just don't portray it as hunting.
Stocked birds can do a better job of mimicking wild birds, but are still stocked birds without quite the instincts of western wild birds.
Takes a dog a bit to figure out truly wild birds from what they are used to here in PA.
the only difference is the PGC birds are just tossed out of the crates (so to speak) they arent disoriented and tucked in a bush the ones near Cambridge Springs just stay by the road on RT. 19 i drive by them on the way to bowhunt.
It's not close.A bird that's too disoriented to run or fly is not the same as one that has a chance to escape.The last time they stock is in mid dec.I was still putting birds up well into feb last year on heavily hunted SGL's.I hunted another SGL in the late season and still moved birds even though it never received a late season stocking.Birds are dumb animals period but they take to the wild pretty fast.I drive by 100% completely wild deer every day that are standing on the edge of the road.
I'm sure it's legal, ethical, and moral, but somehow it reminds me of the turkey shoots we used to go to back when the birds were live and you'd wait for the turkey to stick his head up outta the crate to take your shot.
I've done a few "preserve hunts" all purchased for me as gifts by well meaning family or friends. Once we used a guide and his dog, the 2 other hunts I grabbed a buddy(each hunt) and their dogs... NOT well trained by the way LOL. While in no way an expert on preserve hunts we had a good time. The preserve(same one all 3x's) we went to gives the hunters an area consisting of a couple of fields covering a section of the property(20-30 acres ?). Our hunts were purchased with 4 pheasants and I added 6 chucker on. (I think you get a bigger section to hunt if you purchase more birds) Some of our birds flushed perfectly, some flushed wild, a couple even ran, and yes a few had to be kicked. I have had the same things occur back in the 70's with "wild" birds. Not sure if we ever killed all of "our" birds, but have got a few extras that other people left.
Since I pretty much gave up on small game after picking up the bow in the 80's It is not something that I would do on my own.... However if someone buys/invites me on a hunt I'll go and have a good time. As far as ethical that is something each person decides and few of us have the exact same morals !
You teach flushing dogs to hup, meaning sit, you know when you dog is close to a bird by hey way they act, the handler should flush the bird, when I used labs to hunt we didn't shot birds that didn't flush into the air. Teaching a flushing dog to hup is an important part of training and the dogs need to know that the command hup is not a suggestion. Do they make mistakes, yes but you don't reward them for grabbing a bird that hasn't been flushed, they learn the difference between grabbing a sitting bird and grabbing a cripple that has been knocked down with training. With a pointing breed, you don't shoot bumped birds when training, that teaches the dogs not to get too close before pointing. It is all in the training and if a owner is willing to let birds go if they don't flush. I am not a professional trainer nor do I pretend to be but pretty much anyone can train a dog it they have patience. When you hunt with a dog it is a team and lie any team, each member has it's own role to play.
So are you saying you used to have hard hunting labs that could flush a running pheasant but would sit down if they came to a bird that didn't flush? Or are you saying every time a dog started on a running bird you would hup him and kill the birds when you flushed them?
I've got my knee high rubber boots on, but may have to dig out the hip boots or even chest waders. :wink2:
I know professional trainers that don't teach hup, and in fact compete against many. On the trials I do if you are going to hup your dog you are going to lose. These are very good, well trained dogs.
I never ran trials with any of my dogs so I train them the way I want them to hunt and how fast we get the birds is not important to me, the hunting is. I am not debating what method is best, what is best is what the individual owner whats out of their dog.
Better read it again, I did not say they sat when they came to a bird the hunters give a command to hup.. I said you can read a dogs body language and tell when they are close, that is when I huped them until I was close to the dog, then you can release the dog again to flush or you can flush it yourself. You can teach a dog not to dive in and grab a sitting bird, they learn they will get their reward of the bird after the shot. I am not going to argue the point and start another ground swatting thread. my setters wanted to grab birds too when they were young, until they learn to whoa when they start to creep up, you teach them not to do that. All hunting breeds have prey drive if they are any good, it is up to the trainer to control that drive.
I've seen the argument that an even better trained dog is not far enough away from the handler to have to be hup'd.
And on a lighter note. "Hup" has been explained to me by a very informed individual that "hup" comes from spaniel training. Only a liberal trainer would allow their retriever to self identify as a spaniel. (The laughy face did not come through, totally joking here)
Dap, flushing dogs find and flush birds, so by nature the flushing dog is going in after the bird to move it. Some are trained to sit or stand immediately AFTER the flush. They don't know when a bird won't flush and to my knowledge are not trained to just sit or stand when a bird doesn't flush.
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