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post #1 of 88 (permalink) Old 08-12-2019, 06:52 PM Thread Starter
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Doe Conception Dates

On another thread there was a discussion about the dates when adult and juvenile does were coming into estrus and being bred.

I told dpms that I once had that data and as I recalled both juvenile and adult does were cycling during the same time periods. But, when I looked for the data I was unable to find it.

Well I was able to find that data for the spring of 2002 reproductive examinations the Game Commission WCOs did across the state that spring. Those does would have bred the fall when antler restrictions first started so this data would have been from the period before antler restrictions had any effect on the number of bucks available during the breeding season.

Below is what I found in the percent of both juvenile and adult does coming into estrus and being bred during the year.

Age class...………..Oct...……..Nov...……….Dec...…….....Jan. ..after Feb 1st
Juvenile......………1.8%...….23.6%...…..36.4%...…….9. 1%...……….29.1%
Adult...……………..13.1%.....54.8%...…...4.8%...……..0. 3%...……...26.9%

This shows that highest percentage of adult does are bred in November while the highest percent of juvenile does are bred a month later in December. But it also very clearly shows that a significant number of the juvenile does are also cycling in November during the peek of the estrus cycle for adult does. The data also shows that a significant number of both adult and juvenile does were still cycling and being bred after the first of February.

How much of that late breeding by adult does was because the limited number of adult bucks available where courting and breeding the juvenile does that were cycling instead of courting and breeding the adult does that were cycling at the same time?

I don't think anyone can answer that question but the data from the Game Commission's reproductive exams indicates there was reason for concern and a need to address the issue.

Now I will show the conception percentages for two month blocks excluding December, when most juvenile does are bred, to show the percentages of both juveniles and adults breeding during the first two months and also those being bred after the first of January.

Age class...………..bred Oct & Nov...……...bred after Jan. 1st
Juvenile...……………………..25.5%...……………………..38.2%
Adult...………………………….67.9%...………………………27.2%

Dick Bodenhorn

Last edited by R. S. B.; 08-14-2019 at 02:56 PM.
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post #2 of 88 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R. S. B. View Post

How much of that late breeding by adult does was because the limited number of adult bucks available where courting and breeding the juvenile does that were cycling instead of courting and breeding the adult does that were cycling at the same time?

Dick Bodenhorn
Thanks for posting the info, RSB. Hard to make any conclusive deductions from it other than just the data presented as many factors come into play.

I do have a question for you. What is your definition of "adult buck" as you noted above? I know one of your main angles was that we needed more "older" bucks in the population to enhance our breeding. While we certainly had fewer older deer in our herd, young bucks breed quite successfully as well and carry the same genes. Some studies have shown that older bucks do very little of the overall breeding in herds with a good age variance.

If these pre HR/AR fawn doe November conception rates are truly representative of the entire state, which you implied, the argument could be made that the habitat was ideal for deer even prior to HR/AR as our fawns were growing extremely fast. As fast or faster than fawns from the states with the best deer habitat in the country.
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Last edited by dpms; 08-14-2019 at 08:53 AM.
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post #3 of 88 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 09:43 AM
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I never bought into that "older" buck breeding myth. Iv'e seen too many yearlings actually doing the deed to think that it's mostly done by older bucks. Back in the day there just weren't enough older bucks around here to get it done without help from the yearlings.

Shortly after ar's started, I quit seeing spotted fawns in archery season. Last couple years they've made a comeback in many areas in nw pa, and quite a few of those 50#'s in gun season.
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post #4 of 88 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 10:03 AM
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I never bought into that "older" buck breeding myth. Iv'e seen too many yearlings actually doing the deed to think that it's mostly done by older bucks. Back in the day there just weren't enough older bucks around here to get it done without help from the yearlings.

Shortly after ar's started, I quit seeing spotted fawns in archery season. Last couple years they've made a comeback in many areas in nw pa, and quite a few of those 50#'s in gun season.
I agree. It's all buck to doe ratio in terms of the data presented here. That's not a repudiation of AR or a balanced age structure, but to conclude from that data yearlings don't breed is bogus as can be.
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post #5 of 88 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 10:36 AM
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Iv'e seen some bb's trying, but the does usually usually don't take them too seriously. Usually a kick or two and they give up.

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post #6 of 88 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by yellodog View Post
I never bought into that "older" buck breeding myth. Iv'e seen too many yearlings actually doing the deed to think that it's mostly done by older bucks. Back in the day there just weren't enough older bucks around here to get it done without help from the yearlings.

Shortly after ar's started, I quit seeing spotted fawns in archery season. Last couple years they've made a comeback in many areas in nw pa, and quite a few of those 50#'s in gun season.
Me neither when AR makes you shoot the older bucks now removing them from the herd and let the younger ones do the breeding. I still do see spotted fawns in archery season, not a whole abundance but i still see them. A few years ago i saw a set of spotted fawns in rifle which shocked me.

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post #7 of 88 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 12:17 PM
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"All the older bucks get shot now so the younger ones do all the breeding". That high-grading logic is totally lost on me. As opposed to before AR when 95% of the bucks got shot as yearlings and the 5% or so that remained to see their second birthday were assumed to be nailing 100 does each? Think about that a little, I don't know how it gets perpetuated its so mind-bendingly nonsensical.
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post #8 of 88 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 12:17 PM
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To say that a significant number of fawns are bred in November isn't wrong. However, it doesn't paint the clearest picture either. Late November is very different from the peak adult breeding that occurs early to mid-November. Isn't that the answer to the question being asked? Directly from the horses mouth:


Quote:
Sexual maturity in doe fawns is linked to body size which is related to quality and quantity of food as well as birth date. Doe fawns reaching is critical size (80-90 lbs) come into estrous their first fall; but breed later than adult does. Peak breeding by fawns occurred in late November and early December. Nearly half of all fawn breeding occurred from December to February. This probably explains breeding activity observed by hunters after Thanksgiving

https://www.pgc.pa.gov/Wildlife/Wild...nistherut.aspx

You really under estimated the ramifications of the boondoggle you have just perpetrated!
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post #9 of 88 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R. S. B. View Post
On another thread there was a discussion about the dates when adult and juvenile does were coming into estrus and being bred.

I told dpms that I once had that data and as I recalled both juvenile and adult does were cycling during the same time periods. But, when I looked for the data I was unable to find it.

Well I was able to find that data for the spring of 2002 reproductive examinations the Game Commission WCOs did across the state that spring. Those does would have bred the fall when antler restrictions first started so this data would have been from the period before antler restrictions had any effect on the number of bucks available during the breeding season.

Below is what I found in the percent of both juvenile and adult does coming into estrus and being bred during the year.

Age class...………..Oct...……..Nov...……….Dec...…….....Jan. ..………..after Feb 1st
Juvenile......………1.8%...….23.6%...…..36.4%...…….9. 1%...……….29.1%
Adult...……………..13.1%.....54.8%...…...4.8%...……..0. 3%...……...26.9%

This shows that highest percentage of adult does are bred in November while the highest percent of juvenile does are bred a month later in December. But it also very clearly shows that a significant number of the juvenile does are also cycling in November during the peek of the estrus cycle for adult does. The data also shows that a significant number of both adult and juvenile does were still cycling and being bred after the first of February.

How much of that late breeding by adult does was because the limited number of adult bucks available where courting and breeding the juvenile does that were cycling instead of courting and breeding the adult does that were cycling at the same time?

I don't think anyone can answer that question but the data from the Game Commission's reproductive exams indicates there was reason for concern and a need to address the issue.

Now I will show the conception percentages for two month blocks excluding December, when most juvenile does are bred, to show the percentages of both juveniles and adults breeding during the first two months and also those being bred after the first of January.

Age class...…………..bred Oct & Nov...………….bred after Jan. 1st
Juvenile...……………………..25.5%...……………………..38.2%
Adult...………………………….67.9%...………………………27.2%

Dick Bodenhorn

I would contest, based on the above linked article from the PGC, that what I have highlighted in your quoted text above is NOT clearly indicated in your supplied data at all and that juvenile doe are being bred, while still significantly in November, AFTER the majority of adults have cycled, not during the same cycle and thusly not in direct competition for a bucks attention. Basically, bucks are after adult does for the brunt of November and then turn to the juveniles when they hit their fist cycle late in the month and into December.
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You really under estimated the ramifications of the boondoggle you have just perpetrated!
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post #10 of 88 (permalink) Old 08-14-2019, 12:43 PM
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It seems to come down to a clash between RSB and Rosenberry...... 90% of adult doe bred by the November date not changing. One says yes, the other no.

As far as AR, many here claim that the affect of HR/AR now has most 1 1/2 year old's sporting 3 or more points per side! Now, we are removing the best of 1 1/2 year old's , and saving the spikes and fork horns.
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