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Hunters express discontent over changes in Pa. game laws at the Great American Outdoo

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#1 ·
By Marcus Schneck | mschneck@pennlive.com
The Great American Outdoor Show, which opened for its nine-day run on Saturday, February 1, at the Pennsylvania Farm Show and Complex Center in Harrisburg, is steeped in heritage.

The show, although under a new name since 2014, is itself a long-standing tradition. Until a dispute over military-style rifles and accessories killed the Eastern Sports and Outdoor Show in 2013, it had been an automatic, near-holiday notch on the calendars of families throughout central Pennsylvania and beyond since 1956.

The National Rifle Association, which resurrected the show in 2014, is built around the heritage of gun ownership, shooting and the outdoors.

The sports on which the show is based – hunting, fishing and shooting – are largely based on family heritage and often continued out of a sense of connection to the heritage.

But, beyond the 1,500 exhibitors at the show, the roots of all that heritage are changing. Sunday hunting, new styles of game management, declines in some game populations and the reintroductions of others, game-threatening disease, efforts to bring new hunters and anglers into the sports, and more have fostered discontent and disagreement.

More: Your Guide to the Great American Outdoor Show
Although those new divides originate largely outside the show, they can be found walking the 650,000 square feet of the farm show complex.

“No, I’m not OK with the way things are going at the (Pennsylvania) Game Commission,” said James Dann, 68, of Newport, as he checked out a display of goose calls. I had asked him how he felt about the changes coming to Pennsylvania hunting and fishing, things like opening deer season on a Saturday, targeted removal of deer to combat the spread of chronic wasting disease and trophy-trout programs of the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission.

“They destroyed deer hunting in Pennsylvania. Almost nobody wants to come to camp for deer season anymore.” Dann is a member of a deer camp in Potter County, where he said only five hunters out of a membership of 22 came to camp November 29-December 1 for the opening of deer season.

Edward Green, 36, of Mechanicsburg, has seen the same impact on hunters at the Lycoming County hunting camp his grandfather and some friends built decades ago.

“I’m good with most of the changes, but I know a lot of guys aren’t. We don’t get much of a gang these days,” he explained. “And since my son started hunting, I don’t go up for deer. The older guys spend the whole time complaining about hunting conditions and I don’t want to kill his fun. He thinks hunting is great and he’s always ready to go out.”

Victor Cramer, of Millersburg, commented, “Starting deer on Saturday is a great idea, and this year we get both Saturday and Sunday. How is that a bad thing?

“I’ve been hunting and fishing for like 30 years, and I don’t think things were ever better. I even got a bobcat this year. I never thought we’d be able to hunt bobcat in Pennsylvania.”

More: New gear you can see and try at Great American Outdoor Show February 1-9
Jim Ellison, 41, of State College, noted, “I guess doing things they way we always did them is nice. But things are changing, and we need to do things to change too. If we want to have hunting and fishing down the line, we need new people and we need to solve our own problems.”

In contrast, Henry Bernardi, 73, of Carlisle, said, “I don’t even go trout fishing any more. With all the extra early days for the kids, there’s nothing left for the real first day. And, now there are no pheasants and they want us to buy a special license to hunt nothing. Forget that. And, deer hunting isn’t even worth getting up early.”

And, yet, he hasn’t missed more than two or three first days at the outdoor show. Bernardi laughed, “I’m still a hunter and a fisherman. I may complain a lot, but I want to see the new stuff.”

More: Here are 18 outdoor shows you can attend in Pennsylvania in 2020
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#2 ·
“Edward Green, 36, of Mechanicsburg, has seen the same impact on hunters at the Lycoming County hunting camp his grandfather and some friends built decades ago. I’m good with most of the changes, but I know a lot of guys aren’t. We don’t get much of a gang these days,” he explained. “And since my son started hunting, I don’t go up for deer. The older guys spend the whole time complaining about hunting conditions and I don’t want to kill his fun. He thinks hunting is great and he’s always ready to go out.”

As they sit on the same stump they have sat on for 40 years expecting to see herds of deer.

Edward should be commended for getting his son away from that environment. I swear some hunters would rather spend their time complaining about no deer where they are at then spending that time finding the deer.
 
#3 ·
Very accurate response dpms. Many people just want to complain on everything, not just hunting. If more time was put into hunting and getting out there than complaining they actually might be more successful and happier in life. The complainers will always do just that and are the most heard and reported on because to the majority out there who do not complain are the ones taking benefit to change and are the most successful people weather it be hunting or anything else in life. Kudos to Edward Green for not wanting his son to be part of that atmosphere. To the other guy that said deer hunting is ruined in PA obviously does not hunt much or refuses to adapt and make himself a better hunter. Deer hunting has never been better here in modern times in this state.
 
#4 ·
For the love of Pete, everybody needs to get over griping about the Saturday opener.



This is really simple, if you don't want to hunt on Saturday then great, don't hunt on Saturday. Keep the same camp schedule that you have had for 40 years and pretend nothing has changed. If you were previously able to get that opening Monday off you should have no issues getting the weekend before off also (this seems to be the biggest gripe, they would have to HUNT on Saturday, not just hang out in camp and drink all weekend until Monday)...



For those of us for whom it is difficult to impossible to get off on the Monday opener this is a huge improvement, sorry for all of those who got exclusive access to the woods to hunt until the rest of us could get out on the first Saturday....


Can't wait to see the complaining when PA enters the 20th century and allows deer hunting with semi automatics.....
 
#5 ·
Not a surprise in the least bit. While I’m experiencing the best hunting that I ever have before, there are those that still think the world is coming to an end...

“Don’t even go trout fishing anymore because the kids get em all”... gimme a break. I can go out in any stream around home and catch 20-30 trout in the first day with no problem at all.

I notice this trend among older hunters, bashing the youth opportunities left and right and I don’t get it. Well, I guess I do get it but it’s ridiculous. A lot of these older hunters think that the PGC “owes” them because they’ve been buying licenses for years and they “deserve” it. Then they complain that we can’t recruit young hunters. Then they bash the youth mentor programs while failing to see the purpose behind it...

Like it or not, the youth are the future of this sport and they are the ones who will be buying licenses for years to come. The older hunters will stop buying them soon enough and then what?
 
#6 ·
Pitiful sample of Pa hunters thoughts.
I took 2 things away from those quotes.
1. These are older hunters who no longer want or can do what is necessary to harvest a wild game animal.
2. Camps are mainly composed of that age demographic and such a stagnate mindset has been established.

Kudo's to the gentlemen who had the forethought to NOT have his son around such a negative group of so called hunters.

As a side note, some may say that the Harrisburg show as we call it is not what it used to be either. I don't blame it on the 2014 issue with the gun's, it was declining before that IMO. The outfitter I hunted with in Iowa and Missouri no longer goes to this show. Be curious if the shows curators keep any data on repeat vendor applications year to year and categorize which vendors they are. I would bet there has been a steady shift to more knit knack type stuff then the hard core hunting things I was used to seeing way way long ago at this show...
 
#7 ·
One sided article written to show any body not liking the changes in the worst possible light. Means nothing. I admit I'm curious about the mentioned trouble over what the article called military style rifles. I've not heard about that.
 
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#11 ·
My father passed 2 years ago at the age of 84, I remember he and my uncle going rifle hunting out in Juanita County in the Tuscarora Mountains.
I was a very young boy and I can remember he didn't come home with a buck every year. As a matter of fact now that I'm thinking about it, I don't recall too many deer at all :)...
We used to ask him a ton of questions about the week he and our uncle were there.
I never remember him saying one way or another about the quantity of deer but I do remember the opportunities were few but I never got a negative vibe from it.
When my brother and I were just barely old enough he brought us out there, the 1st year just to tag along then with the passing of our hunters ed class we could carry a rifle. I think I got one crack at a buck during those early years and I came away with the notation that, that was the way it was.
You got up early, sat out in the cold & rain all day, came back and ate dinner and did it all over again the next day. That was deer hunting 101 for us.
By the way, we stayed in a motel too... Don't miss the motel :)....
Fast forward 40+ years later those early days never deterred me.

Point of my story is that you can educate our youth about yester-years without making it negative...Hunting is hunting and no 2 people will have the exact experience due to a boat load of intangibles...

Those who choose to cast a bad light on hunting do it because they are not good stewards of our sport, good or bad...
 
#13 ·
Agreed, Eight Point.
My early years were similar.. Many seasons seeing a TON of doe and some spikes... the rare 4-point..
But all of the "old heads" never had anything negative to say, shared stories (lots or repeats, but just as entertaining each time) and coached the 4 of us youngins along..
Most of them didn't make it too many years into the combined season/AR/HR days, but those who did had no complaints.

I guess my point in my previous comment was that it appears to me those complaining the most about "camps dying" and "tradition being lost" and "Game Commission screwing us over" or "killing off all the deer" are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts... By carrying on and acting in a manner discouraging to new/young hunters, THEY are steering people away from WANTING to be part of a camp or doing things their way... Just look at the article, the comments and demographics speak for themselves... Then follow to the comments seen here, and in countless other threads.. It's pretty clear to me what the causes of "camp decline" are.... and it's not the PGC.
 
#14 ·
Hunting is all a matter of perspective.I started to hunt in 1980 when there were a lot of deer.Interstingly,getting a doe tag was no guarantee and I didn't get one that year.I did kill a small spike that year along with a few squirrels and one rabbit.The PGC was actually stocking turkeys around that time but I didn't kill my first turkey until I was in college.I managed to kill a buck every year but never killed a racked buck until I was in college though.I thought that hunting was awesome at that time and I opposed any attempts to reduce the deer herd.Fast forward 36 years to when my son turned 12.He had already killed more deer and turkeys by the time he was 12 than I did by the time I was close to 40.The old guys complaining about how bad the hunting is have no idea how good we have it today.
 
#32 ·
Agreed. I don't think it has to do with PGC's "sound management". It has to do with hunter decline and the fact that people that do hunt aren't going out as much as they once did. It's amazing how in the last 10 years the hunting population seemed to take a steep nose dive. At least in my area it did.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Not complaining about less hunters it is what it is, I know where you hunt but where I hunt the first yr of HR was sickening, I went out to drive deer for my buddy in Muzzleloader and by 1Pm I had counted 17 dead deer not recovered. After that abomination almost everything around here got posted so when Rosenberry and company raise the antlerless tags for herd destruction round 2 he is gonna have a hard time around here. Pa's deer herd is spotty but we have deer around here in spite of the Gameless commission not because of them. All those dead deer stinking up the woods left a bitter taste in a lot of hunters mouths
\
 
#27 ·
I started hunting in ‘95 and I can tell you that my experiences are better than ever in recent years.

I have opportunities to kill bucks and gobblers every single year but sometimes eat tag soup because I choose to pass if it’s not what I’m looking for.

I’m catching more trout than I ever have before and some really nice ones at that.

I have bagged 15-20 pheasants in both of the last two seasons.

I can go out squirrel hunting anytime I want and bag at least a couple.

Our group usually kills at least one bear every single year now when just 10-15 years ago we were lucky to even catch a glimpse of sign.

I never hunted out of a camp but I’ve been a guest at quite a few. The camp tradition is about way more than hunting I can tell you that. I’ve always enjoyed chatting it up with other hunters and telling stories about past hunts, eating good food and ribbing each other. Getting a deer was always just a bonus for the guys, the camaraderie was key.

The decline in camps began before HR or AR began, for many reasons. Priorities changed and the younger generations didn’t have the time to head to camp for a week. A lot of kids just weren’t interested in hunting. Older generations were quitting or dying off. Better deer hunting was being found closer to home. More people were taking advantage of other seasons and opportunities.

I live a stone’s throw from wha this considered “big woods” and there are plenty of camps around. Many of these camps were abandoned and falling in as far back as I can remember, long before the PGC “screwed it up”. I still hunt in those woods quite a bit and they are loaded with game if you know where to look. I recall the one year on the last day of rifle it was -5 out and I hiked WAY back in gamelands before dark and tagged out on a doe at 8:00. Not another soul around and not a man track anywhere. As I was dragging her back and getting closer to the parking lot, I started seeing orange dots along the ridge above. One gentleman was standing by the gate and looked shocked when he saw the deer. “Where’d ya manage to find her at?” he asked, and I told him about 2.5 miles that way and he just chuckled and said “Well, I ain’t going back into there”...

I don’t make excuses. If I’m not seeing deer or turkeys or whatever, I abandon whatever tactic I’m using and do what I have to, to put myself in position. But I’m still at an age where I can do that. Some day I won’t be able and I’ll be forced to accept the reality of my situation. It will be hard, but I already know it’s coming.

But beat of all, my absolute favorite hunting memories have come in just the last couple years when I have been able to watch my son bag his first gobbler, first buck with a rifle and then first buck with a bow. The excitement I saw in his eyes and heard in his voice tops anything else I’ve ever experienced in my hunting career and that’s what it’s all about. Every moment in the woods with him is an opportunity to teach but also to be taught.

There is something that the PGC teaches in their hunter safety courses now they really rings true, for me at least. The talk about the maturation of a hunter, from an exuberant youngster who is eager to fill tags to someone who figures out that the experience is more important than the harvest to the true teacher and mentor who gets more enjoyment out of introducing someone new to the sport and continuing on the cycle. I feel like a lot of this is lacking here in this state. More emphasis is put on filling tags than on just enjoying the great outdoors and being thankful for the time we are allowed there. Some of my best hunts resulted in coming home empty handed but the memories will last forever.
 
#30 ·
Well said. Yes there is a time to come when the mountain is too high, and the drag too long. Do it as much as you can for as long as you can. Continue to take that boy along whenever possible, in coming years he will be the one that takes you along, and yes the memories will be your greatest trophy.
 
#28 ·
I'm 68 so I guess I could be stereotyped as an "Old(unwilling to change) Hunter". Been hunting over 50 years. I'm all for increasing opportunity for ALL whether it be Saturday Openers, expanded seasons etc. I feel that what most hear is merely based upon a miniscule of older hunters as I know ALL of my friends in my age group(plus/minus a few years) support the recent changes irrespective of talk re "infringement of traditions" whatever that is deemed to encompass. Imo those in my age class are an important backbone supporting the health/longevity of our hunting sport in license sales etc. I know tons of older hunters in their 70/80's who faithfully buy a license every year. Sure hope the younger generation will follow suit in the same old "tradition".:smile2:
 
#29 ·
I can't wait till all the hunters quit over the simple changes being made. This will lead to less pressure and more opportunities for those true hunters gladly welcoming the changes to harvest an animal.
More and more kids of all the old time hunters are college educated and must move away for their careers. Being displaced from their hunting grounds into areas where people don't tend to share their lands only turns these hunters to abandoning their heritage. A Saturday opener was a Godsend and Sunday hunting is icing on the cake! More people will be able and MORE WILLING to travel the hours and hundreds of miles to their hunting grounds. So gripe, complain, surrender and give it up on a fabulous pastime. It will only make it better for those that stick with it and adapt.
As for all those secondary people affected by the changes, same goes. Adapt! Change your Sunday pancake breakfasts and what have you to something that works....As any savvy business owner knows.... if you aren't changing, adapting, growing...... you are dying!!! Same goes with the PGC... They are changing to continue and grow... not die!
 
#33 ·
This guy sounds like jewel...
Way back when we started debating the whole Saturday opener I went on the record stating that those opposed were selfish.
I was met with a lot of replies that selfishness had nothing to do with their negative views and had more to do with things like tradition, holiday, family commitments etc...
This guy just made my case.....and to throw the "kid" card in there makes this guy special....
I think his sediment about the Monday opener is more typical but people don't want to publicize their true feelings on social media due to backlash and hide behind those other reasons...
 
#36 ·
Human nature. Once you get settled in to one way of doing things, any change is met with resistance and complaining...

Like I said before, the younger generations are the future of hunting in this state and elsewhere. They will be the ones generating revenue for the PGC and managing game populations for years to come. Of course they are being catered to in a way in an attempt to give them every opportunity they can to hunt instead of being limited and giving up because they don’t have the time.

A lot of our older hunters resent this and feel that THEY should be the ones getting preferential treatment because they’ve “paid their dues” for decades. They want to be able to shoot spikes again and claim that youth days are killing all the game before THEY get a chance at them. Everybody should listen to THEM because they are the “wise old sages” and what they have to say is gospel when it comes to anything deer hunting related in this state. Any young whippersnappers who embrace change and want to do things differently are berated as being “selfish” and that they demand “instant gratification”. If someone embraces archery hunting and plants food plots to hunt over, they get ripped by some older hunters who don’t believe that, they way of doing it is actually “hunting”.

Change is here to stay whether anyone likes it or not. Hunting numbers will continue to fall overall and less hunters will have to be able to harvest more game. Only way to do that is to extend seasons and allocate more tags...
 
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