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ackley lmproved

5K views 24 replies 11 participants last post by  outofstater 
#1 ·
ive always read about guns chambered a.i. but i dont really know that much about it.can any gun be rechambered,bolt, lever,etc.do you have to reload ammo for these rounds,how much does it cost to convert a gun,and is it worth the money.
 
#2 ·
Any gun can be re-chambered. Typically you only see it with bolt actions because of strength and accuracy. I'm not aware of any commercially available ammunition for a “wildcat” round such as the AI. How much does it cost? If you’re spending the money to re-chamber, one would think you’re replacing the barrel. Kreiger, Broughton, Bartlien, Hart’s all run about $300, some as much as $400, Gunsmith bill for a chamber job runs about $200. At this point you might as well true up the action and lap the lugs, glass bed the action, get some trigger work done, all this can run another $400 to $700 depending on how extreme you go. Custom sizer die add about another $70. Now you ask the question is it worth it? Every darn cent if you ask me? It’s all in what you like to spend your hard earned money on. If someone told me a BMW was worth $20k more than a Chevy Camaro I’d tell them they were outta their mind. To each their own.
 
#3 ·
an ackley improved is not considered a wildcat due to you can actually shoot the original factory shell theu it. You have to understand guys like me have the love of the gun. It like a new mouse trap to play with. What the ai's due is make the case larger to hold more powder, yields more velocity = more knockdown power and gaining more range. first you have to take to a gunsmith to re-chamber, he will run a reamer of that imp. caliber in the chamber some what like a drill bit to make bigger to fit that case, headspace, etc. I would only recomend a bolt action for this. Now where the shooter takes over is forming brass for it. 2 methods; say we have the 280 ai now. Take factory amm place round in chamber squeze trigger. now the case is blown out to the new chamber and a fireformed piece of brass most ai's have a 40 degree shouler. #2 take virgin 280 brass work a stiff load out of a manual seat the bullet in lands touch it off again. yields fireformed case. There is another way which i have never done that can be done guys actually take so much of cream of wheat small amount of pistol powder place a patch in it and touch off.
The plus side of an ai is gaining more vel. as i earlier stated and we all have our personel reasons. I dont own one but the 280 ai has been proven darn near as efficient as the 7mm magnum giving close the vel. with less powder. Also than your buying a magnum action, sizing the beltrd cases. i have experience with the 250 ai my self. What i liked i could go this route and have darn near 25-06 vel. out of a short action. I know some guys have the 30-06 ai and get close to 300 whby. vel with out buying whby. brass. Another plus is you can actually shoot factory load of the mother caliber in emergency.
down side: fireforming brass if you want 50 prepped pieces of brass than you have to shoot 50 loaded rounds for preparation to reload. what is bad there say you have a super high vel. ai such as the 22-250 ai which will be hard on barrels, you just wasted x amount of rrounds of barrel life.
so is it woth it? Your choice i have them and enjoy but my hobby is drag racing bullets. In most cases you can gain 300 fps more with the ai. Im currently building a 22 x243 , gave the 22-250 ai good thought but didnt care to waste the barrel fireforming. i have the 250 savage imp. and would do another one very efficient especially if you like a 25-06. dies for ai are more expensive than regular dies. Btw the ackley come from a famous gunsmith and pioneer in calibers name Parker O. Ackley.
 
#4 ·
Gunnermhr said:
Any gun can be re-chambered. Typically you only see it with bolt actions because of strength and accuracy. I'm not aware of any commercially available ammunition for a “wildcat” round such as the AI. How much does it cost? If you’re spending the money to re-chamber, one would think you’re replacing the barrel. Kreiger, Broughton, Bartlien, Hart’s all run about $300, some as much as $400, Gunsmith bill for a chamber job runs about $200. At this point you might as well true up the action and lap the lugs, glass bed the action, get some trigger work done, all this can run another $400 to $700 depending on how extreme you go. Custom sizer die add about another $70. Now you ask the question is it worth it? Every darn cent if you ask me? It’s all in what you like to spend your hard earned money on. If someone told me a BMW was worth $20k more than a Chevy Camaro I’d tell them they were outta their mind. To each their own.
great post the proper way of new barrel and true the action. some gunsmiths and i have a few around me will re-chamber existing barrrrel. a few of us has had great luck taking the 1984 rem 700 classic 250 savage and re-chambering to the ai. the factory rem. barrels have been good to us.
 
#5 ·
"can any gun be rechambered,bolt, lever,etc."
I dont know about "any" gun. If the gun was origanally for the standard round it should have no problem being rechambered for the improved vesion.

"do you have to reload ammo for these rounds"
Yes
The standard round can be fired in the improved chamber.

"how much does it cost to convert a gun"
Depends on who is doing the work. I have seen huge differences in prices for the same type of work from different gunsmiths. I would guess $150 on up. Remember, cheapest isnt always the best, esspecially when it comes to a gunsmith.

"is it worth the money"
Depends on what 0 to 200 FPS is worth to you.

What cartridge are you looking to improve?
Seems like you get the most gain out of the smaller bore diameters.
Somtimes the improved versions dont feed as well as the standard cartridge. So you might also have extra gunsmithing cost's working over the magazine ect.
You might want to call Lester Knipe (Varmit Shop 610-395-8146). He has done some improved rounds for me and he is not to far from you.

Good luck, Tony
 
#8 ·
The Ackley Improved AI is a wildcat. No factory ammo nor chambering available.

The word improved means you can shoot the factory ammo in it. Which isn't accurate but OK and it makes the case then form fired to the AI shape.

An AI improved case is one that was developed by P. O. Ackley. A respected gunsmith having a shop in Trinidad CO. He wrote for Guns and Ammo and shooting times. Now deceased.

P.O. had the cases made with the same shoulder dimensions, so they headspaces properly with thefactory case. T significant thing is to make a generally straight wall case body, this increases powder capacity DEPENDING on the factory case in question.

Factory cases with generally little body have little advantage being AI (regardless of what people say). Factory cases with significant body taper will have significant increase case powder capacity nad therefore more velocity. The 30-40 Krag is the perfect example of a good AI case. The 300 h&H is another cartridge that increases its capacity by the AI process, as it too also has a ot of body taper. And while these were worth wile in 1960s, today one can get a 300 win mag or a 300 rum and get better velocities than with the old AI improved cases.

Most modern cases like the 243, 308, etc have little increase in powder capacity by reducing the body taper. By comparison the 280 AI gives one extra grain o h20 in case capacity. Hardly worth the effort. so one might say, where does the extra velocity come from?? We AI cases are wildcat so there is no real standard and most are loaded above the pressure in the factory case.

Improving (AI) modern factory cartridges generally give about 150 fps or less at the same pressure. each shooter needs to decide if it is worth the extra activity and expense.

AI cartridges were more significant when we did not have all the factory choices we have today. Today if one wants more velocity than a standrd 280, ,one merely buys a 7 mag. and uses the sved $$$ for more ammo to shoot.
 
#9 ·
"Most modern cases like the 243, 308, etc have little increase in powder capacity by reducing the body taper. By comparison the 280 AI gives one extra grain o h20 in case capacity. Hardly worth the effort. so one might say, where does the extra velocity come from?? We AI cases are wildcat so there is no real standard and most are loaded above the pressure in the factory case."

Bingo!!!! well said Harrysigafoo
You can push alot of standard cases 100+ FPS over published velocities, but they would be above "factory" acceptable pressures. Sure I can still open the bolt ect., but still above factory acceptable pressures.

They are cool, but IMO very little to be gained. I did mine just because I wanted something different.

Good luck, Tony
 
#10 ·
The biggest advantage to doing the AI treatment to a rifle, is the fact you don't have to trim cases. I abhor case trimming.

I picked up a 243 and a 7mm-08 not long ago, both are getting AI'd. Also got another 7mm-08 that'll get AI'd, and a 270 that may very well become a 280AI in the future.
 
#12 ·
Harrysigafoo said:
The Ackley Improved AI is a wildcat. No factory ammo nor chambering available.

The word improved means you can shoot the factory ammo in it. Which isn't accurate but OK and it makes the case then form fired to the AI shape.

An AI improved case is one that was developed by P. O. Ackley. A respected gunsmith having a shop in Trinidad CO. He wrote for Guns and Ammo and shooting times. Now deceased.

P.O. had the cases made with the same shoulder dimensions, so they headspaces properly with thefactory case. T significant thing is to make a generally straight wall case body, this increases powder capacity DEPENDING on the factory case in question.

Factory cases with generally little body have little advantage being AI (regardless of what people say). Factory cases with significant body taper will have significant increase case powder capacity nad therefore more velocity. The 30-40 Krag is the perfect example of a good AI case. The 300 h&H is another cartridge that increases its capacity by the AI process, as it too also has a ot of body taper. And while these were worth wile in 1960s, today one can get a 300 win mag or a 300 rum and get better velocities than with the old AI improved cases.

Most modern cases like the 243, 308, etc have little increase in powder capacity by reducing the body taper. By comparison the 280 AI gives one extra grain o h20 in case capacity. Hardly worth the effort. so one might say, where does the extra velocity come from?? We AI cases are wildcat so there is no real standard and most are loaded above the pressure in the factory case.

Improving (AI) modern factory cartridges generally give about 150 fps or less at the same pressure. each shooter needs to decide if it is worth the extra activity and expense.

AI cartridges were more significant when we did not have all the factory choices we have today. Today if one wants more velocity than a standrd 280, ,one merely buys a 7 mag. and uses the sved $$$ for more ammo to shoot.
Disagree with you on some points. An ackley improved is not considered a wildcat. i feel they are but they are not. i guess the difference is even though the factory case will usually not be accurate it can still be used. al's are efficient anyone says there not has not played enough with them or know how to load. the 22-250 ai we have got over 4000 fps with the 53 sierra. my 250 savage ai 3300 with 87 grain sierra, and hornady. The 280 ai with the 140 bullet will lean on the 7 mag. here you elimante the magnum action, belted case, and less powder than the 7mm mag. Kenny Jarret a custom gunsmith of jarret rifles made the term beanfield rifle popular. his favorite chambering is the 280 ai and will advise customers to actually go with this instead of the 7 mag. is an improved worth it? For the average hunter that doesent reload i would say no. I however like them and most of the remaining rifles i own are custom built wildcats. 22-243, 6mm x 284, 25x 284, 25 Bobcat, and a 338 Edge.
 
#13 ·
hunter718 said:
Cooper and Nosler are both making 280AI's. I have a Cooper 52 in 280AI and I bought 280AI head stamped casings from Nosler and reloaded them myself. Nosler makes factory 280AI ammo also if you don't reload. But it is spendy.
I have seen that they are selling them. Only problem i see besides very pricy is they need to be fireformed in the chamber they are being used for to be most efficient. a buddy of mine as a junk 250 ai that was chambered with the same reamer and gunsmith we use it as a fireform gun to save on our good barrels.
 
#14 ·
P.O.'s AI cartridges has been a hobby of mine. So I thought I'd all that P.o. was a big believer in bolt thrust, not chamber pressure as limiting factor. So one reason he had to reduce body taper was to limit bolt thrust.

Remember he was designing and writing in the 40,50, 60s, and things were different. Many shooters were using rifles like the Savage 99, Krag, or the win 94 and were being told how week thest actions were.

His publixhed tested showed that if you hot rodded 250-300 or other cartridges in the 99 then the higher pressure (really bolt thrust/forsce) woould cause the blot to jam and a rod would be needed to open the action. BUT, if you had an AI chamber then the small body taper would reduce bolt thrust and limit the high binding force on the action. Everything the guy said is usually true today. But with bolt guns and the higher pressure/thrust capabilities in the modern rifles, the need for low body taper is greatly reduced.

In 1977 I bought a Ruger #3 in 30-40 specifically to make into a 30-40 AI. negotiated a box of rem shells in the deal. Took the gun to the range the same day. It shot sub MOA and at the range I entered a local contest and with that box won more $$$ than I paid for the gun! So it has never been changed to an AI...'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.

Just some other things.
Actions are not limited by the chamber pressure, instead it is the rearwrd bolt force that can shear lugs, etc. So small case heads can be in actions and exert less rearward force than larger cases at the same pressure. the limiting factor for me has always been the force/pressure on the primer, that is the weak link. But talking about cartridges design and different actions is still fun for me.
 
#15 ·
Agree with very much, but i for one would not think of any kind of re-chambering unless on a bolt action. im sure guys over the years has done it on other actions to each there own. my 250-3000 i had it close to the edge but bolt lift and primers was fine. it was very efficient for me to gain that much using a short action. The 30-40 never knew of that one.
 
#16 ·
the 348 has some large taper and makes a great round when given little body taper and expanded to 50 caliber.

the 348 AI (again a rimmed large taper to start with) runs with the 338 win mag. The AI work best in lever actions because they reduce the bolt thrust.
30-40 was a lever in the early Winchesters, and the 448 was only ever offered in a bolt gun (M71).

P.O. thought the two best AI cartridges of his were the 30-40 and the 348. I think he was correct. I have 1st editions of P.O.'s book, but they are now being reprinted; I think they are good reads.
 
#17 ·
yes most definity, glad to see some one take the time and re do a valuable book, keep his name going. Your the first i ever to know of to have a lever action done. i thought i read somewhere he said the 250 savage ai was the most efficient but maybe that was someone else giving the opinion. i was never a 7mm-08 fan considered it a lead sled but talked to a few guys that opened it up to a ai and was a lot happier with the velocity. speaking of bookd i have a frined that has carlos hathcock's sighned with a few greetings added. I told him to lock it in a gun safe it is worth some money i would say. i got in to longrange shooting and would of loved to be able to mean carlos hathcock.
 
#18 ·
I believe that Carlos died about 10 years ago. He had a debilitating disease, and many shooters contributed to his financial assistance.
Two good books on him are “White Feather” and "Marine Sniper”, both are presently available in paperback I believe. They are fast easy, exciting reading.
 
#20 ·
thats where my friend met him at gun show there as a dealer. If you check close enough our goverment did him wrong. he had to check out of military career early due to health reasons thinking with out a pension. My buddy told me that the book deal was a thing to help pay his medical expences. if all this is true how sad the man was sure a hero.
 
#21 ·
I had my 222 rechambered to 223AI. Research shows it'll run with the 22-250 with the right loads. Haven't had time to start working loads but itll shoot factory stuff pretty fair - minute of 'yote easy.
Winter project - bed action and work loads.
 
#22 ·
if you like to tinker..then mabye the AI is justified..(i am )...but if your just looking for increased performance..then no it's not worth it..Why?...very simply...despite all the hype the cold hard fact remains...it takes powder to get any significant gains...Although a 280AI can com close to a 7mm rem mag It can NEVER !! match it..simply not enough case capacity..is it more efficient than the mag..probably...efficient or not you still can't match the mags velocity's...out of a 26" barrel..a maximum charge behind a 140 gr bullet in both rifles will alway's give the edge to the bigger case of the mag...same can be said for the 30-06..although there are claims of 300 wby velocity's, it just isn't going to happen..you may approach the velocity's of the wby's milder loads..but you will NEVER reach 3400fps with a 150 grain bullet out of the old 06 i don't care what you do to it...the same can be said of just about every AI caliber...though there is a definite improvement due to case design and chiefly more powder capacity...the 25-06AI will not beat a 257 wby...a 280AI will not beat a 7mm mag and a 30-06 AI, will not beat the larger 300 mags...so unless you like to tinker and like something a little different..save your money and just step up the ladder to the larger cases.
 
#23 ·
thats hard to argue, but i have fun tinkering. yes, if your the guy who loads or wants to buy a box of shells before hunting season and go hunting stick with a factory gun. i load and shoot year round weather permitting my main hobby. most of my rifles are wildcats works for me. btw, pity the poor guy who would steal one and try to use it.
 
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