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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-23-2010, 10:48 AM
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Re: Another HPA In Print Reference

Funny that Mr. McDaniel doesn't mention that in that thread, 64% of hunters approved of antler restrictions.

https://www.huntingpa.com/forums/ubbt...690451&fpart=1

The man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere critic. ~Roosevelt
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-23-2010, 09:05 PM
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Re: Another HPA In Print Reference

63% of hunters taking the poll--not 64% of hunters

Don't tase me Bro!!
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-24-2010, 12:22 PM
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Re: Another HPA In Print Reference

True enough, but in nearly every poll; be it here, on another web site, or through the PGC, the numbers run just about the same.

The man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere critic. ~Roosevelt
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-24-2010, 08:29 PM
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Re: Another HPA In Print Reference

I notice this quote in McDaniel's article:
Quote:
George Block, an outdoor columnist for the Washington Observer-Reporter and an official Boone & Crockett scorer, wrote that he has scored fewer big bucks since antler restrictions were implemented eight years ago—to the tune of 31 bucks in 2009 compared to 128 in 2002.
That may be true, but can't anyone ask the right questions?
◘ Were antler restrictions designed to increase the number of B&C bucks? No.
◘ Does one Boone & Crockett scorer's experience mean anything, especially when antler restrictions were never designed to produce more B&C bucks? No.
◘ Isn't it also true that there are more qualified scorers now? I'm just guessing, but I'd bet the answer is yes.
◘ What's the average number of racks a B&C scorer measures each year? It certainly isn't 128. That might have been a banner year for Mr. Block.
◘ And were those 128 racks in 2002 all from the most recent season? And all from Pennsylvania? That information isn't given, and those numbers are meaningless anyway without knowing the season in which those bucks were killed.
◘ Mr. Block is a good guy, but he's only one guy. Is his experience typical of all Boone & Crockett scorers? How many B&C scorers have scored more bucks since the advent of AR? Certainly some have.
◘ Pope & Young standards are much lower and a much more realistic view of what is a mature buck -- so wouldn't P&Y entries better reflect whether antler restrictions have produced more mature bucks. Of course it would, but Mr. McDaniel doesn't mention that.
◘ Are record book bucks a proper measure of what AR has produced? Maybe not. From what I read, it looks to me like the majority of hunters aren't really concerned with being in the record books.
◘ Mr. McDaniel says antler restrictions are "just taking opportunities away from the average hunter." Isn't he really just saying that what AR has taken away is opportunities to shoot immature deer? Are most hunters really in favor of shooting immature deer indiscriminately?
◘ If it's fair to say what AR has taken away, isn't it fair also to say what AR has given?

Just some fair questions.

Steve

"When you put a buck on your wall, it links you to those guys who painted the walls of caves." --Me.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-24-2010, 10:27 PM
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Re: Another HPA In Print Reference

128 Boone and Crocket entries from ANY state in a year is LANDMARK.

The man who really counts in the world is the doer, not the mere critic. ~Roosevelt
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-24-2010, 10:37 PM
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Re: Another HPA In Print Reference

I don't want to divert this thread so that it gets moved to the AR forum, but I got to investigating the numbers mentioned above. (McDaniel calls it "a telling statistic," but 128 in 2002 and 31 in 2009 are just two numbers that stand in isolation and have no statistical relation to one another.)

Another online reference (dated January 6, 2008 in connection with the state archery non-typical record) says this: "George Block of Eighty Four, an official Boone & Crockett Club scorer, measured the rack. He said he's scored 70 or or more deer every year for the last 20 years, handling bucks from all over the country." Two points in reference to that...

First point: That means he measured 70 or more in 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, and 2003. So, matching that up with McDaniel's quote that Mr. Block scored just 31 in 2009 means only one down-year. There could be lots of reasons why the numbers were down in one year. Was he less available for some reason? Did other scorers take up more of the load?

Second point: The quote says "bucks from all over the country." So, we can be sure that the 128 he scored (if McDaniel's number is correct) in 2002 were not all from Pennsylvania. The number from Pennsylvania might actually have been either high or low. Maybe Ohio and West Virginia had a banner year -- there's no way to tell without Mr. Block dropping by with his actual numbers through the years. Even that would be inconclusive without answers to the questions in the first point.

The AR policy was never intended to create bigger bucks or trophy bucks. It was to allow more bucks to mature, and the numbers clearly prove that has been the result. The debate over AR will never be settled until we change from talking about size to talking about age.

Let's just be happy that HuntingPA.com is getting mentioned more and more, and has become one of the a premier hunting forums on the 'net.

Steve

"When you put a buck on your wall, it links you to those guys who painted the walls of caves." --Me.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-27-2010, 06:10 PM
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Re: Another HPA In Print Reference

Hey now, lets not go getting all logical and objective. I don't think this McDaniel character will be doing a follow up to address his oversights. It seems to be a biased article to begin with.

Every action has a re-action! 4D
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-04-2010, 05:12 PM
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Re: Another HPA In Print Reference

Quote:
Mr. Block scored just 31 in 2009 means only one down-year. There could be lots of reasons why the numbers were down in one year. Was he less available for some reason? Did other scorers take up more of the load?
Do you want me to ask him ?

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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-05-2010, 01:56 PM
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Re: Another HPA In Print Reference

My point was really that McDaniel has given us only one man's opinion, no more important than yours or mine, and he supported it with data that he interpreted incorrectly.

If you want to ask Mr. Block a question, the question would probably be how many bucks he has scored since about 1994, what year were they killed, and what states were they from? But regardless, even though Mr. Block is a great guy and an experienced scorer, the numbers from one scorer won't tell much.

I thought about contacting Boone & Crockett to see how many bucks from PA were entered in the last 16 years (8 pre-AR and 8 post-AR.) But that really doesn't matter either because it gives no idea how many 130, 140, 150 and 160-class bucks were killed pre-AR versus post-AR. It could be that there are fewer B&C entries, but more bucks in those classes. Boone & Crockett statistics are not the measure of whether or not AR has been successful.

The main point is that AR has produced more bucks in older age classes, generally of larger antler size. That has been proven, and more older bucks was the goal of AR, not more B&C racks.

Steve

"When you put a buck on your wall, it links you to those guys who painted the walls of caves." --Me.
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