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Editorial on deer management from PPG

11K views 169 replies 28 participants last post by  jimbridger 
#1 ·
From Pittsburgh Post Gazette

Point / counterpoint on deer management | Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
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Outdoors notebook
Point / counterpoint on deer management
February 19, 2017 12:00 AM

By John Hayes / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
On last week’s outdoors page, biologist, outdoors writer and noted deer authority C.J. Winand said that while other deer hunting states are “envious” of Pennsylvania’s deer management policy, he had bones to pick with details of the plan. Nothing nasty, just his belief that the Game Commission’s antler restrictions were the result of a bad but necessary compromise, and enforcing a minimum 15-inch inside spread would better protect young bucks[/quote]
 
#2 ·
I would encourage everyone to ready the entire short article in the link, including Rosenberry’s reply, instead of just this small cherry picked snippet.

I agree with Rosenberry instead of Winard. Anyone who thinks a 15 inch spread restriction would be better for Pennsylvania, or for hunters, is looking at it ONLY from a trophy perspective instead of a wise deer management or hunter satisfaction perspective.

Dick Bodenhorn
 
#4 ·
Very strongly agree spread restrictions are too difficult in real world hunting situations and the current system works by protecting most yearlings. That was and should be the goal, not creating a trophy destination. I would however be in favor of adding a spread provision, the key being in addition to the points. Where we hunt in 2D we've seen a couple deer reach maturity as very large 6 points but are illegal to harvest. Rare situation but those deer being mature should be legal for harvest.
 
#5 ·
Personally, I don't think AR's even matter anymore. We are losing hunters on a continual basis. Fewer and fewer people hunting every year. And enough people practice their own AR, passing on sub 3 1/2 year old bucks, that the PGC's AR could be lifted and it won't affect much at all. At this point in time, it's just a feel good for some.
 
#6 ·
Back before AR I went to Georgia on a so called trophy deer hunt. Dooley County Ga. at the time was a minimum of a 15" spread and the outfitter made his rule 16" to help out to be safe. If it you killed something under 15" he called DNR and fined you himself 500.00, under 16" and to 15" he just fined you 500.00. You signed a contract before hunting of this was the rules. The rule of thumb was the ears was 16" don't shoot under the ear size and you would be safe. I was asking him back then some details and he said the genetics had to be so good for a spread rule like this and I could agree. I kind of have my own 16" rule anything under I'm just not interested in. So needless to say I dont harvest a buck every year. I like horns but everyone else might not and to do something like this would be a disaster. Of course it would be a good money maker for PGC on fines. :D
 
#9 ·
If there are still truly those out there who have the brown and down mentality, then spikes and forks would still be shot to some degree.

It would be an interesting poll. All those who are against ARs, would you shoot a smnall buck if it were legal again?
 
#12 ·
It would be an interesting poll. All those who are against ARs, would you shoot a smnall buck if it were legal again?

I'm not against AR, but really don't care either way. If AR were lifted, I'd still continue to take whatever legal buck passed my way, just like I always have.
 
#15 ·
Just posting what the outfitter told me. I haven't been there since 2001 so I don't know there program anymore. My full intention was taking a 16" or better since prior to AR I never did that hunting around here since 1975. Now with AR a 16" is quite common and I sure would not pay to harvest one. Back to my original I asked that guy when I was down there what it took, the genetics he said had to be good.
 
#18 ·
In many parts of PA now, there aren't enough boots on the ground to over harvest any age class of bucks. In the other parts of the state, there is enough posted ground to protect bucks. And if the BOC were truly concerned about breeding rates, they wouldn't be handing out such conservative antlerless license allocations these past couple years.
 
#32 ·
The over harvest has already happened! That's what hr accomplished! There are not enough doe in 4d for them all not to get bred by taking ar off for one year. I don't care either way. They have damaged our sport and it will never enjoy the number of hunters or the number of deer that we once did. There is no shooting in gun season and no deer hanging and fewer and fewer camps with hunters in them. Keep up the good work! The state ground will soon just be good for bike paths.
 
#19 ·
Back to shooting spikes and Y bucks? Really. And as a side note I wonder how you will be able to hold it still long enough to put a tape measure on it's head? Seems ridiculous to me..


AR got started because bucks had a real shot at getting shot at 1.5 years old. Do you really want to go back to doing that?


All I can say, and have said again... Thanks Gary Alt. This state needed to cooperate 20 years earlier than they did.
 
#20 ·
i believe one of the old bear regulations before Dr. Alt was that the canine teeth had to be an inch long ? we could go back to that.

as far as AR, i dont really care, i like venison regardless of the rack size. as far as HR.....it needs to stop completely and .....IMMEDIATELY.
 
#21 · (Edited)
From 2000 to 2007, data on breeding dates from more than 2,500 females were collected. Average date of conception prior to APRs was November 17. Following APRs, average date of conception was November 16.

In Pennsylvania, most adult does are bred in mid-November and sexually mature female fawns tend to peak about two weeks later. Other aspects of breeding ecology, such as pregnancy rates and embryo counts, have also remained at stable and healthy levels.

Based on these data, it does not appear APRs significantly changed timing of breeding in Pennsylvania.

this is directly from the PGC.
 
#25 · (Edited)
From 2000 to 2007, data on breeding dates from more than 2,500 females were collected. Average date of conception prior to APRs was November 17. Following APRs, average date of conception was November 16.In Pennsylvania, most adult does are bred in mid-November and sexually mature female fawns tend to peak about two weeks later. Other aspects of breeding ecology, such as pregnancy rates and embryo counts, have also remained at stable and healthy levels.

Based on these data, it does not appear APRs significantly changed timing of breeding in Pennsylvania.

this is directly from the PGC.


The benefit of antler restrictions and keeping more of the 1 ½ year old bucks alive until the next fall breeding season is not about changing the timing of the breeding season. The timing of the breeding season isn’t going to change because it is determined by the length of the day not how many bucks are out there. Therefore the mean breeding date should never change by more than a few days one way or the other.

What not having enough bucks in the fall does do though is results in more of the doe not getting bred at all and of those that are bred it can be over a much longer time period resulting in more late born fawns coming from adult does, lower fawn recruitment rates and more sublegal bucks in future fall seasons.

I spent decades, before retirement, collecting the breeding rates and time periods on the does I removed from the Elk County highways between the 1st of February and the end of May.

In the five years prior to antler restrictions 15.6% of the adult does hadn’t been bred at all during the previous fall. Of those that were bred it took five months with one being as late as February 23rd. The reason those does weren’t bred was because there so many does cycling at the same time there simply weren’t enough bucks to get them all bred prior to buck season. Once they come into cycle does are only receptive for about 24 hours then they are going to go out of cycle and not come in again for another 28 days. So, there were simply so many does cycling at the same time in October and November the bucks couldn’t get to all of them. The reason there weren’t enough bucks was because hunters had killed about 80% of the legal bucks the previous fall and the only bucks available the next breeding season were the 20% that hadn’t been killed last fall and last fall’s button bucks that were now 1 ½ years old. Then buck season came along and once again took out about 80% of the breeding capable bucks so any does still cycling were very likely not to get bred at all.

After antler restrictions started, and there were more bucks in the next fall deer population the number of adult does not getting bred declined to only 2.9%. All of them had been bred within a two month period before the middle of December.

Nope, I have seen the benefits so no one will ever be able to convince me that we don’t still and always will need a method of protecting about half of our 1 ½ year old bucks. Antler restrictions seem to be the best and most hunter accepted method for doing that. I will say though I believe we will eventually get to the point we have to adjust the restrictions downward in some WMU to get the correct number of bucks harvested. It is just as bad for the habitat and the future for good deer management to keep excess bucks as it is keep excess does.

Dick Bodenhorn
 
#23 · (Edited)
"...as far as HR.....it needs to stop completely and .....IMMEDIATELY."

HR ceased to be a factor several years ago, in all but a few areas that are mostly now Special Regs areas.

In case some hadn't noticed, doe tag allocations have been steadily decreasing over the past several seasons, as more WMUs were being added to "bucks only" for the first five days - which means HR had ended in those WMUs.

Now, all WMUs are non-concurrent, but for SR areas.

As for ARs, they've worked very well in the parts of 3A that I've hunted in for over 55 years.

There has never been another time in my experience, that we've had more big bucks around and more bucks, generally. According to a farmer cousin that lives near my camp, at least SEVEN racked bucks we had around last season, made it thru all deer seasons and were seen in early January.

There will always be some that choose to shoot any buck, rather than abide by Antler Restrictions. My opinion, they are in the minority, but if allowed to do so again, there are enough of them, that would have a detrimental affect on the number of good bucks that remain available.
 
#31 · (Edited)
RSB the PGC states preg. rates, timing, % of does bred, etc. its the PGC stating ARs have changed NOTHING when it comes to breeding. fawn rec. has remained stable, # of fawns per adult doe, etc. so the PGC biologists have it all wrong when they state the MAJORITY of all does are bred in mid nov. HR could have had as much to do with your #s as ARs
 
#39 ·
Actually no one in the state knows what is happening with when does are bred, how many of them are bred or how many fawns they are producing anymore.

That data used to be collected in every county of the state by the WCOS collecting it from the highway killed deer between February 1st and the end of May. It was collected each and every year for decades.

Now neither WCOs nor anyone else collects any breeding rate or fetus data from any dead deer. Now the only thing they have to track fawn recruitment rates is the percentage of fawns in the antlerless deer harvest each year.

That might be good enough to show any major collapse in the fawn recruitment and management direction but it is absolutely not sensitive enough to capture any normal annual changes in the doe breeding rates for adult or juvenile does. They are basing their no significant change on statewide data, instead of county or even WMU size data, and from years ago instead of any recent data collection. Furthermore by just tracking the fawn percentage rates in the antlerless harvest they are tracking fawn recruitment rates instead of fawn birth rates, which is two totally separate sets of data and information. By collecting the data from dead deer in the late winter you know how many does were bred and how many fawns of each sex are being born per doe or each age group. But, when tracking just the number or percentage of fawns in the antlerless harvest at the very best you are tracking nothing more than the number of fawns that had been recruited into the herd that year. You might not even be tracking that in some cases if deer numbers change and hunters become more or less selective on when they are harvesting an adult doe over just nay antlerless deer.

To show how much fawn recruitment rates can change from one year to the next, in a county, I am going to post the fawn/adult doe sighting rates from several years with the same volunteer survey teams running the same designated survey routes here in Elk County. The surveys were done by running the same route at least once per week over the same six week period each year.

Year……………………fawns/adult doe
97……………………………..0.44
98……………………………..0.55
99……………………………..0.51
00……………………………..0.38
01……………………………..0.53
02……………………………..0.72
03……………………………..0.57
04……………………………..0.62
05……………………………..0.64
06……………………………..0.66
07……………………………..0.70
08……………………………..0.53
09……………………………..0.62
10……………………………..0.68
11……………………………..0.50

Everyone needs to understand that this reflects the number of fawns per adult doe, just as the data being collected on the number of fawns in the antlerless harvest. That data though perhaps stable across the state does change from year to year within a geographic area based on a wide range of variables and factors. Some of the factors that will change it could be the number of does bred, the fawns being carried per doe, the previous year’s mast crop, the previous winter conditions and their effect on fawn weights at birth and/or the predator influence on the fawns after they are born which in its self can change as a result of many factors including fur prices and the previous bear harvests along with the current bear, coyote and bobcat populations.

As you can see even though the fawn percentages in the antlerless harvest might be sufficient for determining a management direction they are really tracking fawn recruitment rates and have no correlation to breeding rates what so ever. There are also way too many variable that effect fawn recruitment rates for them to currently be tracking any changes in the breeding rates or reproductive rates for age calls of does. In other words all that can be provided on those topics now are generalities and speculations based on what has been learning in the past instead of what is or might be occurring now.

Dick Bodenhorn
 
#34 · (Edited)
i was shooting just about any legal buck before AR and i am still shooting any legal buck with AR

i like venison not racks. on a side note, if i have seen a big buck in the area i will wait as long as i can before i tag his little brother. not everyone are trophy hunters and we sure as heck shouldn't be forcing them to become one.

that's like forcing my life style on you because i think its better, and you have to believe the way i do, because i believe you should.

shoot what you want, as long as its legal. heck, i had a WCO give me a deer this year after they checked our licenses. it was an illegally taken 4 point and i was just as happy as if i had shot a deer myself, pus, i didn't have to tag it :)

had venison meatloaf tonight, that little buck tastes mmmmmmmm good.
 
#35 ·
Glad you enjoyed! I'm the opposite, I found a good recipe for the horns they are great on my wall. I don't care for deer meat I grind around 30 lbs of burger for my 10 lb dog. We call it Sophie burger and I make some bologna at times. I never waste a single piece though even took care of one I hit with my truck. I enjoy giving it to people who thinks its the ultimate, especially non hunters really appreciate it.
 
#40 ·
way back when buck and doe season were separate and doe season was the 3 days after buck. i shot a doe, and for some reason when i gutted her i checked to see if she was pregnant.

somehow, i found two fawns. each one was about the size of a 50 cent piece. that was in December on SGL 44

i bet if you checked next season you might find some. I think i will.
 
#41 ·
RSB,

Here is a link to the PGC website that says what Oaktown was saying.

Antler Restrictions Are They Working

Here is a quote "Other aspects of breeding ecology, such as pregnancy rates and embryo counts, have also remained at stable and healthy levels."

Not sure why you are disputing what the PGC Biologists are saying.

Are you saying they are making it up?
 
#42 ·
Your link says antler restrictions are working. I have been saying from very early on that antler restriction are both needed and working for better deer management. I have not changed that stance or position.

What about that do you take as me saying something opposed to the same message the Game Commission is saying?

I am just pointing out that they no longer capture the breeding rate data and haven’t for a number of years. That is not something that is disputable because it is an absolute fact.

That doesn’t mean though that they can’t effectively manage the deer herd without that data. It just means they are now using the best fawn recruitment data available to them instead of the old breeding and reproductive rates data from highway killed deer. Therefore, they can’t compare what it was back then with what it is today, because no one knows what the breeding or reproductive rates are today. It is not a matter of agreement or disagreement, it is simply a fact that no one can deny or dispute.

Once again I will flat out tell everyone though, the methods they use today are suitable and accurate enough for determining the correct management direction even if they aren’t as sensitive as everyone wishes they were. They are working with the best data they can capture in today’s system. Even though it is different data being used today doesn’t mean it is not as good. But, it still makes something’s from back then not valid in compassion to what it might or might not be today.

Dick Bodenhorn
 
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