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Stumped on lack of penetration

3K views 28 replies 16 participants last post by  WOL 
#1 ·
Hunting partner of mine shot a good buck yesterday and was very happy for him but skinning the deer left us wondering.

Down and dirty: broadside 2 shots to the ribs at 15 yards no major bones contacted and 2 perfectly mushroomed bullets lodged in the far hide.

Now these rounds preformed perfectly put the buck right down (2nd shot was insurance, state land) im just not getting how the bullets stayed inside the buck.

30-06 with 150gr fusions.

Have shot and seen LOTS of whitetails taken with fusions in 243, 270, 280, and 30-06. All various ranges but all under 250 yards but never have failed to have a complete pass through on a broadside shot.

Anyone have any thoughts as to why both rounds failed to pass through at such a close range? My guess was the loads might have been loaded a little shy on powder and not getting the velocity?
 
#3 ·
I have seen two examples of this. The first one blew my mind. My dad shot a doe, broadside, right behind the shoulder with a 7mm Rem Mag. Range was about 30 yards. Load was a Federal factory load with 160 grain Accubond. It did not exit. The deer ran about 100 yards. There was about 18 inches of snow so it was easy to follow the deer's track up to it. Not a drop of blood. We could not find an exit wound or any blood in the snow. This year, he shot a 200 pound buck, head-on. Same gun and same load. He shot the buck in the brisket and it exited it's rump. Talk about two extremes!!!!!

The other time surprised me, but I can believe it. My buddy shot a buck with a 308 Win that I hand load for him. 150 grain Barnes X Triple Shock at around 2900fps. Did not exit. We found the bullet under the hide in the off shoulder. It was quartering so it makes it a little more believable. The bullet was perfectly expanded, like the pictures in their ads. And it still weighed 150 grains. So, the bullet opened quickly, expanded perfectly, retained all its weight and killed the buck. Sounds perfect. It just didn't exit. Maybe another 100 fps would have done the trick.
 
#5 ·
I always want an exit wound. If you have ever had a frustrating tracking job with very depressing results, you will have wished the deer had two holes in it. The other consideration is, if the bullet won't exit on a broadside rib shot, what happens on a quartering-to shot?

Do you have a chronograph? I would be interested to see what the rest of the rounds in that box are clocking. It could be a velocity thing.

How did the bullets look? Did they retain a lot of weight? Or did they shed a lot of mass?
 
#6 ·
i dont know a lot about velocity and bullet performance but doesnt the bullet need some distance to build up "terminal velocity" ?

i do know barrel length affects the FPS rating and that the further a bullet travels it slows down and the reverse occurs, "terminal velocity" is reduced.

So what is the minimum and maximum distance for pass thru with certain calibers ?
 
#7 ·
i dont know a lot about velocity and bullet performance but doesnt the bullet need some distance to build up "terminal velocity" ?

A bullet starts slowing down the instant it leaves the barrel. It will never get any faster or "build up terminal velocity".
 
#12 ·
I thought that too, but since he said he didn't know much about ballistics I thought I'd educate a little about what he did say....which was terminal velocity. Just a PSA....not trying to ruffle feathers or anything.:):thumbs:
 
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#10 ·
At advertised velocities (2900 fps) you're going to be hitting that deer at 15 yards at nearly that same speed. That bullet is going to expand rapidly, almost instantly(other bullets would expand violently, BTW). I theorize that the bullet expanded to close to double it's original diameter as it hit ribs, plowed through the tissue and came to rest on the off side hide because it used up most of it's energy and now has a huge, in comparison, frontal area. Hide is exceptionally elastic. There was a massive amount of bloodshot/goo/membrane stuff under the hide on both sides, wasn't there? I imagine that hide stretched out several inches when those bullets came to rest too.
 
#16 · (Edited)
I can buy that.


I got the least penetration I can recall using a 180 gr. 30-06 on a Nebraska whitetail at just 23 yards. It was a frontal shot that was recovered behind the diaphragm, with a load doing just over 2,700 fps at the muzzle. While the bullet held up perfectly and showed excellent weight retention despite being a standard/cup-and-core Sierra GameKing (89% retained weight), it had expanded significantly due to the close impact, ending up nearly double its original diameter when it came to rest. It didn't carry nearly as far as one might expect with such a heavy-for-caliber bullet.


Conversely, I got complete broadside penetration with a comparatively puny 100 gr. Sierra Pro-Hunter handload out of my .243 Win (going a shade over 3,000 fps at the muzzle) on a Nevada mule deer buck at 265 yards. I think that some offset distance and correspondingly lower expansion actually helps the penetration up to the point that the velocity shed is too much to overcome.
 
#13 ·
You say no major bones contacted. Did he break some ribs? I have shot a few deer and with my 30-06 and 150gr bullets and broke some ribs and didnt have an exit wound. If he hit ribs my guess is the ribs slowed the bullet down and he got the vitals and there wasnt enough energy for an exit.
 
#17 ·
At 100yds it may have had through and through penetration.
There is more stress on a bullet on close shots where velocity and energy is still high. A bullet will often reach its maximum expanded diameter within the first inch or two of penetration, the rest of the distance allows the damage to be done along the way. If it keeps that expanded diameter it will slow down faster than if it goes beyond maximum diameter when the petals peel back farther and the diameter becomes smaller. Bullets tend to perform the best within the middle of the road velocities. Point blank range adds maximum stress on a bullet and longer than normal range may not allow the bullet to expand optimally. Manufacturers have a tough job trying to cover all the bases with cartridges that hurl bullets anywhere from 2400fps to 3400fps. At either ends of the spectrum crazy things happen.
 
#27 ·
I agree with mfuff.

I also agree with the others who mentioned hide stretch. I have read account's of people watching a animal being shot by someone else, and them seeing the offside hide stretch out and snap back. I believe this is the reason that so many bullets that are recovered are found just under the far side hide. It also makes me wonder how many bullets just barely break through that far side hide and could be laying within feet of the animal?

I dont think any bullet can be accurately judged based on the results of one animal. Even under controlled test conditions using ballistic gelatin the same bullet at the same velocity have given different penetration depth's, final expansion diameters, and retained weights.

Good luck, Tony
 
#18 ·
Hunting partner of mine shot a good buck yesterday and was very happy for him but skinning the deer left us wondering.

Down and dirty: broadside 2 shots to the ribs at 15 yards no major bones contacted and 2 perfectly mushroomed bullets lodged in the far hide.

Now these rounds preformed perfectly put the buck right down (2nd shot was insurance, state land) im just not getting how the bullets stayed inside the buck.

30-06 with 150gr fusions.

Have shot and seen LOTS of whitetails taken with fusions in 243, 270, 280, and 30-06. All various ranges but all under 250 yards but never have failed to have a complete pass through on a broadside shot.

Anyone have any thoughts as to why both rounds failed to pass through at such a close range? My guess was the loads might have been loaded a little shy on powder and not getting the velocity?
At advertised velocities (2900 fps) you're going to be hitting that deer at 15 yards at nearly that same speed. That bullet is going to expand rapidly, almost instantly(other bullets would expand violently, BTW). I theorize that the bullet expanded to close to double it's original diameter as it hit ribs, plowed through the tissue and came to rest on the off side hide because it used up most of it's energy and now has a huge, in comparison, frontal area. Hide is exceptionally elastic. There was a massive amount of bloodshot/goo/membrane stuff under the hide on both sides, wasn't there? I imagine that hide stretched out several inches when those bullets came to rest too.
Good info Ryan
 
#21 ·
Is it time to debate bullets? :) I guess first of all there is only 1 kind of dead, and since your skinning and found this we have a dead deer. Every one has an opinion on this situation ill give mine. Except for my LR rifle I shoot only wild cat 6mm, and 25 calibers producing high vel. I still happen to believe in fragmentation and uses bullets that do so. Thinking if I make a bad hit maybe a piece of fragment can go and lodge in a vital area and has happened for me before. I normally dont worry about an exit hole due to I feel if that bullet did its jobs inside I don't need a blood trail. Now I know this comment will give different opinions but it has worked so very well for me and I have been lucky not to have lost a deer that I hit in many, many years. My 25 x 284 I use a sierra 100 grain spritzer fb going at 3450 fps. My 6mm x284 I use a Sierra 85 grain HPBT at around 3450 fps also. We have some great bullets out there today doing some amazing things I have used and been amazed. Also, some of this theory depends on what school you are from and really I don't think there are any wrong answers. Best of Luck!
 
#23 ·
Is it time to debate bullets? I guess first of all there is only 1 kind of dead, and since your skinning and found this we have a dead deer. Every one has an opinion on this situation ill give mine. Except for my LR rifle I shoot only wild cat 6mm, and 25 calibers producing high vel. I still happen to believe in fragmentation and uses bullets that do so. Thinking if I make a bad hit maybe a piece of fragment can go and lodge in a vital area and has happened for me before. I normally dont worry about an exit hole due to I feel if that bullet did its jobs inside I don't need a blood trail.
Not planning for a contingency?
 
#25 ·
You can go heavy and slow or light and fast the correct bullet will work for a hunter.In this case the bullet did its job quite well.Any animal shot with the proper firearm and bullet should die in sight.Hit properly.I shot a doe at the base of the neck facing away from me last year.30-06,125 grain going 3300 fps.Chronoed speed.I almost removed its head .When the bullet(Sierra Pro Hunter)hit that deers spine there was a softball size entry wound and the spine was gone.Deer dropped so fast I thought I missed because it dropped like now straight down.It wasn't in the scope anymore.Velocity and bullet construction killed that deer,I merely placed that bullet where it needed to be.If I told you what I'm using now it would upset a few people but it is going even faster than the 30-06.In the end a deer should expire in sight if the hunter made a well placed shot.Doesn't matter if it exits if you get the energy where it needs to be.Practice with any gun you hunt with,my favorite part is burning lead on paper.That is I why reload and chrono them.I'm addicted to firearms according to my wife.Sorry if I got off the topic.However the deer is dead that bullet worked.
 
#26 ·
I had the same thing happen 7 yrs ago. 1st day I shot a mature deer we'd targeted all archery season. We called him pretty boy. I shot him slightly quartering away at 70 yards (rangefinder) using remington coreloks in my Model 70 3006. Bullet didnt pass through and I recovered it while skinning in farside hide. The deer went about 30-40 yards into some thick cover and wo an exist hole there wasnt much blood. We found him but the panic in my head made me never shoot coreloks again. The following year i switched to fusions and have had nothing but pass throughs. Now in fairness I havent shot a deer as large and mature as that deer.
yes the bullet did its job, deer was recovered, but I want that bullet to go through!
 
#28 ·
Good info here.

Last three deer I have shot have been at 30 yds or less, using Remington Core Lokt PSP 150gr .30-06 ammo.

All three deer had entrance wounds in the near shoulder. All three deer had massive internal trauma to the chest cavity, and died 0-20 yards from where they were shot. Two of the deer had exit wounds of around 2 inches in diameter, in the far shoulder, with both shoulders broken.

One deer had an exit wound under the jaw. Go figure how that could happen, but it did. The bullet hit the near shoulder, and somehow deflected up along the neck/spine and exited at the bottom rear of the mandible.

The point being made here is that there can be unexpected variation in bullet trajectory, after initial impact, under real world hunting conditions.
 
#29 ·
A tough bullet driven fast is hard to argue with. I like the Barnes X bullet because you can drive it as fast as you want and they always hold together. They also expand to form 4 sharp-edges petals instead of a blunt mushroom. They can cut tissue instead of just plow through all that resistance. Out of our 7mm and 300 mags, they are deadly. Always an exit and they tear up the insides. Always had penetration with the 30-06 and X bullets too. The 308 went 6 for 7 on X bullet penetration. The last one was a quartering shot that broke the off shoulder and was wedged against the hide. You could see the bump through the skin.
 
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